FAQ  •  Register  •  Login

First AEG: I know you said to get a Marui...

<<

Snorlax

User avatar

Posts: 542

Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2014 6:27 pm

Post Wed May 07, 2014 3:28 pm

Re: First AEG: I know you said to get a Marui...

Mine works fine with 0.25s at default TM Hi Capa velocity, though. Clearly they don't need 0.2s to function correctly. I'll come to yours for an afternoon and we can test it more thoroughly if you want, but slinging around definitive statements without anything more than 'butt dyno' proof is a bit counterproductive, don't you think?

You'll note I never made any concrete claims without backup, and have said multiple times that I bought most of these bits because I read reviews that claimed they were good (exception: Guarder crap) and wanted to verify for myself.

On another note, I figured out why the Guarder steel barrel jams up the slide. Unfortunately it's a design issue that can only be fixed with various complex means that I'm too lazy to do myself.
<<

Eda

User avatar

Posts: 1449

Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2009 11:00 pm

Post Wed May 07, 2014 6:07 pm

Re: First AEG: I know you said to get a Marui...

Heheheh, don't fall into the trying-to-defend-yourself-against-accusations-made-by-Flazz mindset. Doesn't work :P
<<

Snorlax

User avatar

Posts: 542

Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2014 6:27 pm

Post Wed May 07, 2014 6:16 pm

Re: First AEG: I know you said to get a Marui...

It's a bit slack to make grandiose claims without any evidence, though. Especially considering his voice rings the loudest and clearest of any opinion in the club, being the armorer and all :?
<<

Flazzbog

User avatar

TAG Treasurer
TAG Treasurer

Posts: 3467

Joined: Sun Aug 08, 2010 8:48 pm

Location: Christchurch

Post Wed May 07, 2014 7:28 pm

Re: First AEG: I know you said to get a Marui...

Sorry I'll re-do my post for you mate since you won't take my word for it.

Maybe you didn't know but basically hop twist barrels are a magical science bullshit barrel. If you do it just right the gains are minor and in most cases probably a placebo.

However hop twist barrels are a really clever and interesting concept. They are designed to do two things:
The first is to allow air to flow around the bb as it moves through the barrel in a certain way to make the airflow transition from a laminar flow to turbulent flow whilst still inside the barrel.
The second is to cushion the bb from the sides of the barrel to give you a more accurate shot. The second point explains itself and is all people on the internet seem to grasp, but the first is not really understood as all of the source material is from obscure Japanese forums and is lost in the translation (if it was there in the first place).

Image

The benefit of having a turbulent air flow is that is has less skin friction on an object than laminar flow. Establishing this inside the barrel, rather than two or three metres outside of the barrel has a large impact on the net energy loss of the bb as it travels through the air. Think about it, you're gun could chrono in at 330fet (100m) per second but it would not go 100metres in a second. Generally it would in fact only go 40-50 with the help of hopup. This is because all of this energy begins rapidly dissipating as soon as the bb begins to travel through the air. Air resistance is exponentially related to the speed of an object. This means that the energy loss is at its highest at distance zero from the barrel exit. So the sooner the bb gets in a turbulent flow the better, this results in less energy loss at the most critical location which translates to more range.

The problem with these setups is that they're "calibrated" for 0.2g bbs at around 300fps. Turbulent and laminar flows are based of the Reynolds Number which has a key variable of VELOCITY not energy. So if you use 0.25s the speed is all wrong and it will basically function as a smoothbore but with a morderate fps loss due to the rifling (which are channels cut into the barrel rather than grooves protruding into the barrel). If you crank up the fps too high than the bbs will grind along ridges and go wild. Basically unless you use them just right, these barrels just give slightly sub-par performance or extremely bad performance.




But what if you get it right and all this bullshit im spouting actually does something?

Then you get a slight increase in range of about 5-10m which is quite nice when SEGs are only effective to 40m. But why bother with this on a pistol? Why bother using 0.2s to get kills at a range where these tiny 0.2s are just floating out of the air? People are likely to not even feel it (because you're using sub 300 fps and 0.2s after all). You can get the same gains from using heavier bbs with the normal setup which everybody does anyway (I can explain why this is the case too). Why bother having 0.2s for a pistol and 0.25s and above for SEGs?

If you're not in it for the science and doing it right than it's just not worth doing. So what I am trying to say is.....

Hop twists don't work off muzzle velocity.

Source : I have one. (and a several university level qualifications in fluid dynamics)
<<

Snorlax

User avatar

Posts: 542

Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2014 6:27 pm

Post Wed May 07, 2014 7:36 pm

Re: First AEG: I know you said to get a Marui...

Awesome. Now I understand, and it no longer seems like you're spouting random opinions off the top of your head with no proof either for or against, cheers :D

edit: The reason for using 0.25s over 0.2s is because they're affected less by wind and other forces, right? They don't shoot as far as 0.2s but they retain velocity better and are more consistent?
Last edited by Snorlax on Wed May 07, 2014 7:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
<<

Flazzbog

User avatar

TAG Treasurer
TAG Treasurer

Posts: 3467

Joined: Sun Aug 08, 2010 8:48 pm

Location: Christchurch

Post Wed May 07, 2014 7:40 pm

Re: First AEG: I know you said to get a Marui...

Tasker wrote:Awesome. Now I understand, and it no longer seems like you're spouting random opinions off the top of your head with no proof either for or against, cheers :D


Now get back in your box!
<<

Snorlax

User avatar

Posts: 542

Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2014 6:27 pm

Post Wed May 07, 2014 7:47 pm

Re: First AEG: I know you said to get a Marui...

Oh and the slide jamming thing seems to be this:

Illusion Kinetics, Airsoft Canada Forums wrote:Q3: When I fire my metal upgraded pistol (slide and barrel are metal), the slide seems to get stuck when it tries to return forward. When it gets stuck like this, the easiest way I can get the slide to return forward is if I hit the muzzle of the barrel inwards. What's happening and how do I fix it?
A3: Over time and use, a traditional tilting barrel eventually chews through the lugs in the slide that are used to engage the chamber and pull it back. Once the lugs are worn down and the slide can no longer reliably grab & pull the barrel back, the slide ends up getting caught on the top of the chamber, which dramatically increases the damage to the slide.

At this point, there are three solutions, but only two of them are reliable:
The first solution is to get a replacement slide. If you are using a clone and you get a same replacement slide, this problem may happen again. If you get any other brand of slide, it may not play well with your barrel, AND/OR if you are able to get the slide to cycle the pistol properly, the barrel may again, chew up the lugs in the slide. This is not certain, but based on the lack of information in this area, and based on the prices of a quality aftermarket slide, it's best not to guess with this one.

The second solution, is a two piece outer barrel system, pre-loaded with a spring - it's a custom modification that I figured out a couple of years ago before any other solutions were on the market. If you dig around enough, you may find some tutorials or pictures online of how such a setup looks. Basically, it is a two-piece barrel system, with a spring attached to the inner barrel and levers it against the chamber. The outer barrel just covers the assembly. The result, is that the natural state state of the outer barrel, is now to pull backwards, rather than rest in a neutral state. By doing so, the barrel & chamber does not rely on the slide's lugs to pull it back anymore, instead, the spring does this for the slide and the end result is a barrel that (on its own power) follows the slide back naturally. The downside to this, is that the slide's forward lug now bears the force of returning the barrel to battery AND pushing the spring forward at the same time. If this lug is still in perfect shape, then this shouldn't be an issue, but it WILL take more damage and break down faster. It shouldn't be too much worse, since the spring should only be light weight. However, if that lug is destroyed, then your only reliable option is the third solution...

The third solution is ILLusion Kinetics fixed barrel, which offloads all contact that the slide makes with the barrel/chamber, which increases the slide life to an infinite level. Even a completely internally destroyed slide can function properly with this barrel set. The barrel does not move, it does not tilt or rock. It's stationary. The chamber top is lowered a slight bit, so that the slide just glides over the chamber cover. This type of barrel works with any brand of slide, regardless of its health.


Clearly the solution where he says "Buy my shit" is part marketing, but Airsoft Surgeon sells a barrel running off the same concept (can't find any in stock), and I've found various self-fix options to achieve the same effect (shave slide locking lugs so the barrel drops back in place sooner, use a spacer that a.) pins the outer barrel to the inner barrel hop assembly and b.) prevents the slide from making contact with the outer barrel by a half millimeter).

Solution A is obviously "Use stock TM bits" and think on the matter no more, but I'm inclined to explore Solution B or C if they exist.

edit: Found a Nine Ball one.
<<

Eda

User avatar

Posts: 1449

Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2009 11:00 pm

Post Thu May 08, 2014 3:25 pm

Re: First AEG: I know you said to get a Marui...

I love the science and logic that goes into airsoft, but what I love more is minimalistic gear that functions really well.

If you're keen on faffing around with all the different options, which believe me can be fun, I wouldn't even bother going Marui. On account of the fact you'll be stripping away almost all of the magical Marui pixies anyway, and they're scientifically proven to be what make their guns shoot so good.
<<

Flazzbog

User avatar

TAG Treasurer
TAG Treasurer

Posts: 3467

Joined: Sun Aug 08, 2010 8:48 pm

Location: Christchurch

Post Thu May 08, 2014 3:36 pm

Re: First AEG: I know you said to get a Marui...

But if your stuff is rubbish you can go back to premium marui!
<<

Snorlax

User avatar

Posts: 542

Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2014 6:27 pm

Post Thu May 08, 2014 4:22 pm

Re: First AEG: I know you said to get a Marui...

For everyone who missed the spectacle:

Image

Yeah, I spreadsheeted it.

The gun might be better, but is it $1500 better?

Initial thoughts are "fuck no"

edit: maybe next time I'll buy a broken WE dragon or something
<<

ReaperNet

User avatar

TAG Secretary
TAG Secretary

Posts: 2861

Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2010 3:46 pm

Post Thu May 08, 2014 5:43 pm

Re: First AEG: I know you said to get a Marui...

I count $339.4? How did you get $1493.25?
<<

Snorlax

User avatar

Posts: 542

Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2014 6:27 pm

Post Thu May 08, 2014 6:02 pm

Re: First AEG: I know you said to get a Marui...

That's not the full spreadsheet. This is.
<<

Eda

User avatar

Posts: 1449

Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2009 11:00 pm

Post Thu May 08, 2014 6:12 pm

Re: First AEG: I know you said to get a Marui...

Costs about the same as my entire pistol and rifle setup.
<<

Flazzbog

User avatar

TAG Treasurer
TAG Treasurer

Posts: 3467

Joined: Sun Aug 08, 2010 8:48 pm

Location: Christchurch

Post Thu May 08, 2014 7:07 pm

Re: First AEG: I know you said to get a Marui...

I for one think its awesome. Why not right?
<<

ReaperNet

User avatar

TAG Secretary
TAG Secretary

Posts: 2861

Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2010 3:46 pm

Post Thu May 08, 2014 7:57 pm

Re: First AEG: I know you said to get a Marui...

Not sure what you're expecting. Welcome to airsoft.
PreviousNext

Return to General

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 2 guests

cron
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group.
Designed by ST Software for PTF.